Season 3: Episode 13 Making Redundancy More Inclusive: Six Lessons for HR Teams

Welcome to today's episode

of Redundancy Matters.

2

I'm June Hogan.

3

I'm a career coach and

outplacement specialist, and

4

have got a background in HR.

5

And this is the podcast where I

help HR professionals and leaders

6

managing redundancies to put

people at the heart of the process.

7

This episode idea came to me when

I was reflecting on the episodes

8

that I had recorded over the past

year, and also the conversations

9

that I've had with some really

wonderful guests diving into different

10

aspects of managing redundancies.

11

And there was one topic that came

through for me through four of the recent

12

conversations that I've had in this

series, and that was around the notion

13

of making redundancies more inclusive.

14

So in this episode, I'm bringing

together the key lessons from

15

four really brilliant guests.

16

So, I'll be drawing on the episode

with Victoria Dale, who's a diversity

17

and inclusion consultant; the episode

I recorded with Angela Wilkins-Green,

18

who is an executive coach and menopause

specialist; and the conversation with

19

Claire Chapple, who's an employment

lawyer, and she specializes in supporting

20

women and organizations with, redundancies

associated with maternity leave.

21

And then more recently, the

conversation I had a few weeks

22

ago with Julia Crawford, who's an

experienced HR director and ADHD coach.

23

And through these four episodes, they

really helped explore redundancy through

24

different lenses, through the lens

of neurodiversity, maternity leave,

25

menopause, and inclusion in general.

26

And so, while each of the conversations

focus on a different area, I found

27

that they had some similarities

and some similar conclusions.

28

So today, I'm gonna share the six key

lessons that I've drawn from those

29

conversations, and if you want to go

into any more detail about any of them,

30

then I'll pop the links in the show notes

31

So let's start with the first one.

32

So this one, I talk about this

a lot, is about starting with

33

the person, not the process.

34

And I think that's perhaps the

most important place to start

35

and the most important lesson

because redundancy is a process.

36

It is a process that has to be

legally compliant, and it's a

37

process that has to be followed.

38

But if you've ever experienced

redundancy for yourselves or if you've

39

been managing redundancies and noticed

how that lands with people, then it's

40

very rarely experienced as a process.

41

Experienced as something that's

very human and very real.

42

And when I was talking to Julia Crawford,

she said that she'd been involved in

43

probably over 100 restructures throughout

her HR career, and she reflected

44

that redundancy can have a completely

different meaning for different people.

45

And I certainly see this from

the work that I do working with

46

outplacement clients, is that for

some people, redundancy can be

47

the motivation for a fresh start.

48

Some people will have been

thinking about moving on.

49

Maybe they didn't have the motivation,

the resources, or the financial stability

50

that some redundancy packages can give

people in order to make that fresh start.

51

But for other people, it can

feel utterly devastating.

52

And that's a reminder that redundancy

isn't simply an administrative

53

exercise or an administrative process

because at the heart of it all,

54

we're dealing with people, and of

course, you never really know what

55

else is going on in someone's life.

56

It's very rare that redundancy is the

only thing that someone is dealing

57

with, and that impacts how they will

react to the news of being put at risk.

58

So they could be dealing with financial

pressures, there could be health concerns,

59

personal challenges, relationship issues,

challenges with members of their family.

60

And all of that compounds when someone

is then having to deal with what it

61

means to be put at risk of redundancy

And Claire Chapple reinforced this

62

when she was talking about women on

maternity leave because she described

63

redundancy as an interruption to

someone's life, which clearly it is.

64

But when you're talking about that

interruption to someone's life when

65

they're on maternity leave, that's

during one of the most vulnerable

66

and transformative periods of their

lives that they may ever experience.

67

And she shared a reflection that as a

business, headcount reductions may be

68

required, and that's entirely necessary

and in line with business needs.

69

But whether that process feels cold and

transactional or compassionate and human

70

is the choice that, as HR professionals

and leaders, is always there.

71

Because people will always remember

how they were treated long after

72

they've forgotten the details

of the consultation process, but

73

they will remember how they felt.

74

And certainly, that resonates with me.

75

My first redundancy was almost

20 years ago now, and I can still

76

remember how that process made me feel.

77

I very, remember very little about the

process itself and, and the administration

78

that was associated with it.

79

And so I think that's why every one of

those four guests episodes that I'm gonna

80

talk about, and indeed, l- the theme that

comes through from lots of the guests that

81

I've interviewed over the past 12 months,

is that really putting the person before

82

the process is, is super important because

it's not just the policy or the timeline

83

or the legal requirements, but thinking

about the person as much as possible.

84

And the second theme that came through

is that fairness doesn't always

85

mean treating everyone the same.

86

And that might seem odd because

if you think about fairness, you

87

generally think about consistency.

88

Treating everyone exactly the

same, then nobody can say that

89

they weren't treated fairly.

90

But when I talked to Victoria Dale,

what she helped us challenge is to think

91

about whether treating everyone the

same actually creates a fair outcome.

92

So Victoria explained that inclusive

decision-making means recognizing that

93

different people may have different needs.

94

So for example, someone on

maternity leave might need a

95

different approach to communication.

96

Someone with ADHD might need more

time to process the information.

97

Maybe someone experiencing menopause may

benefit from some additional flexibility

98

or thinking about the type of room for

their meeting and the location, et cetera.

99

Someone with a disability

may well require reasonable

100

adjustments throughout the process.

101

And so the goal isn't about special

treatment for people, but it's about

102

giving people the support that they

need so that they can be treated

103

equally, and ensuring everyone's got

a fair opportunity to un- understand

104

the process, to contribute to the

process, and really participate fully,

105

depending on their individual needs.

106

And one thing that Victoria also

talked about was equality impact

107

assessments as a really practical

way of helping organizations identify

108

where a process may unintentionally

disadvantage people in certain groups.

109

So asking questions like: Who

could be affected by this decision?

110

Could any aspect of the

process create barriers?

111

And importantly, what can the

organization do to reduce those barriers?

112

And if that's not possible, then

documenting all of that and documenting

113

that decision-making process.

114

So it's a proactive approach rather

than waiting until somebody raises

115

a particular concern, and that's

just good people practice really,

116

and, and a mindset that applies well

beyond managing a redundancy process

117

So the third theme that came out was about

slowing down and having time to plan.

118

Now, Julia talked about this in her

conversation, was that some redundancy

119

processes begin with a level of urgency.

120

And I've certainly been in that

situation myself as a HR professional,

121

and I've worked with organizations

who have also been managing

122

under incredibly tight timelines.

123

Because it might be the organization

needs to save money, there could be

124

commercial pressures, there could be

particular deadlines they need to hit,

125

and leaders just want to move quickly and,

and, and get things, get things moving.

126

But in some cases, that, that rushing,

and particularly at the start, can then

127

create problems further down the line.

128

And one thing that Julia talked about

was investing time up front in the

129

planning helps people to think more

clearly and more carefully about selection

130

criteria, the communication plan, the

consultation arrangements, adjustments,

131

and also think about individuals.

132

Because when you can spend some time

planning up front, that really helps

133

to shape everything that comes next.

134

And particularly along the theme of

inclusion, you can be looking very clearly

135

and in lots of detail about selection

criteria, for example, making sure they

136

don't disadvantage people in particular

groups, and planning a communication

137

plan and a consultation plan that really

does follow an inclusive approach so

138

that people in particular circumstances

feel that they have been included.

139

And Claire made this point as well

from a legal perspective, that

140

before any announcements are made,

organizations need to understand

141

who may be affected and whether any

additional considerations apply.

142

Particularly, are there

women on maternity leave?

143

Are there women in the, who are in the

potential at-risk pool who are pregnant

144

or recently returned from maternity leave?

145

Are there people on parental

leave, long-term sick, people with

146

disabilities, and also others who may

be receiving workplace adjustments?

147

So the more thought that goes

into the planning, the more likely

148

it is the process will be fair.

149

Also, the more likely it is it will

be compliant and compassionate.

150

Because when the process starts, it's much

harder to correct some of those mistakes.

151

So really putting some time and effort

and consideration into the planning

152

phase can be really important.

153

And then the fourth theme is around

how communication can make or break

154

the experience for an individual.

155

And this is something that every

guest spoke about in these four

156

episodes, but also, again, is a theme

that runs through conversations.

157

Julia talked about the fact that when

someone hears the word restructure or

158

redundancy, then they often stop listening

because their mind will immediately jump

159

to, "Well, what does this mean for me?

160

Am I losing my job?

161

And what happens next?"

162

And that's why she recommended

providing information in writing,

163

keeping communication really

clear and concise, and giving

164

people to process the information.

165

Because for colleagues with ADHD it can be

really important to have that information

166

in advance to help them process what's

gonna be happening in the meeting so

167

that they know what to expect, so they

can plan and give some thought to that.

168

And also having the right

time and space afterwards to

169

reflect on what they've heard.

170

And also being offered someone to come

into the meeting with them as a colleague

171

or a representative, that can be really

important as well in terms of processing

172

lots of information in the moment So these

sorts of things can significantly reduce

173

the stress for an individual and not

just somebody who might be neurodiverse.

174

And Claire also highlighted the

additional challenges faced by women

175

on maternity leave, because when they

are part of this process, they're

176

not physically in the workplace.

177

They may have been out of the

workplace for, for a number of months.

178

So they don't hear the conversations

that might be going on in the office.

179

They haven't got the opportunity to sort

of talk to their colleagues, and they

180

don't have access to the same sort of

informal updates that everyone else might.

181

Which means communication plans

for someone on maternity leave

182

becomes even more important.

183

And one thing that Claire talked

about is to encourage employers to

184

think about how that contact is made,

who might be contacting the, the

185

individual, offering meetings which

might be virtual or face-to-face,

186

depending on their preference, thinking

about the flexibility, the timing.

187

If they've got a new baby, then

fitting that around childcare

188

arrangements, for example.

189

And certainly, I was someone who

was, um, put at risk of redundancy on

190

maternity leave many years ago, and all

of those things would have made a huge

191

difference to the experience for me.

192

I was treated just like everyone

else in the process, and of course,

193

I wasn't expecting special treatment.

194

Um, but thinking about things like the

location for the redundancy meeting,

195

the timing of the redundancy meeting,

I just felt like I had to fit in line

196

with everyone else, rather than actually

advocating for myself and saying that

197

a nine o'clock meeting isn't actually

that, um, convenient or practical for me.

198

And could we have had something

later in the day, and preferably

199

not something where I'm in the

middle of an open plan office.

200

So thinking about that

flexibility is important.

201

And also, Angela Wilkins-Green talked

about that when she was talking

202

about the importance of creating safe

conversations where women who may

203

be navigating menopu- menopause can

discuss what they need and also make

204

those adjustments in communication.

205

So it might be if you've got a woman

who is dealing with brain fog or lack

206

of confidence, low energy, anxiety,

this may or may not be something

207

that, that she has declared to you.

208

But if you've made those observations,

then you can make some subtle changes to

209

the process and that it's still treating

everyone fairly, but recognizing that

210

a woman in that particular situation

might just need some extra adjustments

211

to make sure the communication is really

landing in the right way and that they

212

feel included and, and well-supported

And Victoria, uh, reminded us that

213

communication needs to be accessible.

214

So using plain English, avoiding the

jargon, um, where it's not necessary,

215

providing information in formats that

people can engage with, that they

216

can access, and that communication

isn't just about sort of sharing

217

that information, ticking a box.

218

It's always about reducing that

uncertainty for people and, and helping

219

people to understand what's going on.

220

But actually, in reality, people

need information to be really clear,

221

concise, and explained more than once.

222

So the fifth theme that came

out was that managers make a

223

big difference in the process.

224

So you can have the best process

in the world on paper, but if

225

managers aren't equipped to deliver

it well, then that experience can

226

still feel like it's not inclusive

and that it's not person-centered.

227

So Victoria talked about the importance

of helping line managers understand

228

potential bias And that could be

conscious or unconscious bias.

229

So making sure managers really understand

the process, particularly when they're

230

gonna be conducting selection criteria and

making sure that, that, that bias isn't

231

getting in the way of how they might be

rating and scoring their team members.

232

Angela Wilkins-Green also highlighted

that another critical skill in helping to

233

create an inclusive process is noticing.

234

And particularly when women are

experiencing perimenopause or menopause,

235

they might not openly tell their

manager what they're going through.

236

And in fact, many work incredibly

hard to make sure nobody notices

237

because they don't want anyone to

treat them differently or to know

238

that they might be struggling.

239

So it's about managers maybe observing

those subtle changes, maybe that loss

240

of confidence, maybe someone who seems

more anxious than they would normally

241

be, reduced concentration, lower energy.

242

And what Angela's advice was that

if you are noticing these things,

243

it's not about becoming a menopause

expert, it's just about becoming more

244

curious and being able and comfortable

to ask those open questions and

245

create space for a conversation.

246

And that doesn't have to be during

a redundancy process, but something

247

as simple as, as, "I've noticed you

don't quite seem yourself lately.

248

Is there anything that you might

need from me to help to support you?"

249

. So being curious, being supportive, and

just making sure that as much as possible

250

you are noticing things about those

members of the team . And Julia shared

251

a similar message about neurodiversity.

252

She talked about replacing

judgment with curiosity.

253

So rather than assuming someone's

disorganized, or maybe they're

254

lazy, or they've got terrible time

management, then asking, "Well, could

255

there be something else going on?

256

Could there be a reason

behind that behavior?"

257

And just having a level of increased

curiosity and also thinking

258

about that when you're looking

at selection criteria as well.

259

And then Claire talked about women on

maternity leave are often operating

260

in a completely different context

to the rest of their colleagues

261

because, you know, they're caring

for a baby, they're away from work.

262

They're completely disconnected

from day-to-day activity.

263

And so ensuring that managers have

an awareness of that reality when

264

they're planning those conversations

and the consultation meetings.

265

And then the final theme was

that inclusion really does

266

start long before redundancy.

267

So this isn't a process that's just

gonna be happening in isolation.

268

Because Angela talked about the fact

that creating cultures where women feel

269

safe discussing menopause before it kind

of becomes a crisis is very important.

270

And if those conversations about

wellbeing and support are already

271

normalized, then women are gonna feel

far more likely to seek help when

272

they need it, and not necessarily feel

that they raise that during the middle

273

of a redundancy consultation meeting

because someone has shown an interest

274

or a level of curiosity or a level of

care about how they might be feeling.

275

Because if those conversations

never happen, then people just

276

tend to struggle in silence.

277

And then of course, when redundancy

is added to that stress, it can

278

compound the impact even more.

279

And Claire Chapple shared a similar

message about maternity leave because

280

she encouraged employers to think

about the entire maternity experience.

281

So how to communicate with

women on maternity leave.

282

Do they want to be included?

283

How do they want to be kept updated?

284

How do they want to be informed?

285

And really helping to do some of

that contracting before someone goes

286

on maternity leave so that in the

event there's a workplace restructure

287

during the time that they're away

from work, then you've got some level

288

of communication plan in place and a

method of communication that's been

289

agreed on by both of you Because if

someone feels supported during their

290

maternity leave, they're therefore far

more likely to trust the organization if

291

and when difficult conversations arise.

292

And then Victoria approached this

from a sort of organizational

293

perspective, and she encouraged

employers to embed inclusion into

294

the everyday decision-making that

they're doing, rather than waiting

295

till a redundancy program starts.

296

And talking about those equality

impact assessments, talking about

297

the mindset, and thinking ahead.

298

And Julia made a similar point with regard

to neurodiversity, is to help managers

299

understand neurodiversity, to look at

workplace adjustments, and to encourage

300

employees to feel safe discussing

what particular needs they might have.

301

Because if all of this is out in

the open, if people feel supported,

302

if people feel valued, then the

redundancy process becomes fairer,

303

it becomes smoother, and it becomes

less stressful for everyone involved.

304

And I think that's really the

thread that runs through all the

305

conversations, is that if you are

helping to create a workplace where

306

managers know their people, where

conversations can happen early in the

307

process, where people's individual

differences and needs are understood,

308

and any adjustments that people might

need as a result are normalized, then

309

employees can feel safe asking for

support, and importantly, encourage an

310

environment where leaders are willing

to listen when people come forward.

311

Because when those difficult decisions

need to be made, then trust is the

312

foundation for all of this, and it

becomes one of the most valuable

313

things that an organization has.

314

And of course, trust isn't built

during a redundancy consultation.

315

It's built every day

that happens before that.

316

So that's the end of this episode.

317

I've certainly enjoyed reflecting on

those themes and understanding the

318

things that can be done to make a

redundancy process more inclusive.

319

I hope that you've enjoyed

reflecting on them as well.

320

So thanks so much for

listening to today's episode.

321

If you want to dive deeper into anything

relating to managing redundancies,

322

there's also a link to join myself and

my colleague Robyn, where we get together

323

once a month and we host a free one-hour

session where we talk about all things

324

relating to managing redundancies.

325

And you're very welcome to join us there.

326

And thanks again for listening.

327

It's lovely to have you here