Season 3: Episode 14 How to support employees with CV writing during redundancy

Hello and welcome to the

Redundancy Matters podcast, helping

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compassionate HR professionals

managing redundancies who want to put

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people at the heart of the process.

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I'm your host, June Hogan, a qualified

career coach and outplacement

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specialist with a background in

HR and founder of Outplacement

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services provider Wildwood Coaching.

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If you're managing a redundancy

process, then there's a very

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good chance that someone will

ask you for help with their CV.

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I understand that not every organization

provides outplacement support, and so

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people are likely to come to you as a

HR professional or their line manager

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because they want some reassurance,

they want some guidance, and quite often

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they just don't know where to start,

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because for some people, it

might have been years since

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they last applied for a job.

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Some people might not have a CV at all,

and others might just be struggling to

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see their strengths, their achievements,

because they're still in shock at being

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told their role is at risk of redundancy.

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So in today's episode, I'm joined

by career coach Phil Stern.

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And Phil and I have worked together for

a number of years now, and I thought I

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would invite him along to the podcast

so that we could talk about practical

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ways to help people get started with

their CV and to give you some insights

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on what you can do to support people

if you find yourself in that situation.

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We talk about why confidence can

take a knock during redundancy.

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We also talk about why people find

it really difficult to articulate

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their value, especially when

they're looking at their CV.

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And we also talk about how to help

people move beyond a CV that reads

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like a job description and more,

, into a CV that demonstrates impact.

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So whether you're supporting employees

directly because you're not able to

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provide access to outplacement support,

or maybe you just want a better

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understanding of what people need

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, when they've come to you to ask you for

guidance and support to update their CV?

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then I really hope you

enjoy this conversation.

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And of course, if you do want to

provide access to outplacement

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support so that people can work with

professionals like Phil and myself,

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then you'll find all the details of

how to do that in the show notes.

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Okay, so let's dive into

today's conversation

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June Hogan: Welcome to today's episode

of Redundancy Matters, and today I'm

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delighted to be joined by Phil Stern.

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Phil Stern is a career coach who helps

senior people navigate career crossroads,

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and Phil and I have been working together

now for a few years, and he also does some

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work me within my outplacement business.

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So Phil, this is lovely to

have you on the podcast today.

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Phil Sterne | Escape Corporate W@nkery:

Hi, June.

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Thank you very much.

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Great to be here

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June Hogan: forward to our conversation.

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So that was a very short introduction

about you and what you do.

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So tell us a bit more about what you do,

where you've come from, and the sorts

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of things that you support people with.

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Phil Sterne | Escape Corporate W@nkery:

Sure.

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Thank you.

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My background is all in recruitment, and

I spent best part of 20 years working

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in a range of different recruitment

settings, both in agency and headhunting,

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and then in-house in client side teams,

building recruitment practices and

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and leading teams and basically making

recruitment and resourcing, as we called

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it then, not talent acquisition so much

we didn't really have that language.

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Making those operations better.

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I spent a few years contracting funnily

enough, after I was made redundant,

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and I also have worked at Amazon,

helping them grow their business across

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the UK and across Europe as well.

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to do with the pandemic it was…

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I'd already made the

decision of leaving Amazon.

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I'd left in the January of that year.

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And by that February, I had set

myself up as a careers coach

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helping people with their CVs and

LinkedIn profiles and whatnot.

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But what I discovered over the course

of the last six years of doing that

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is that actually people come to me

thinking that they want a CV, and

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that's usually a big part of it.

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But actually the bigger thing that

they go away with is confidence in

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their next move, having articulated

or being encouraged to articulate the

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real value that they bring, what they

wanna do, what they don't wanna do,

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what they want their lives to look like.

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And then the CV is

often a product of that.

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But yeah, so I've been doing that for

six years and as you say, I've done quite

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a lot of work for your clients as well.

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June Hogan: That's…

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Thank you, Phil.

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And yeah, that I think we'll get into

that a little bit in the conversation

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in that particularly the clients

that, that I work with and some of

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the clients that you work with as

well, when they're at that transition

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point with redundancy, it's natural

to think, "I need to update my CV."

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And of course, that is a

pressing and present issue.

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But there's all, there's a lot more that

goes with that, so we'll dig into that.

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So the podcast is called Redundancy

Matters, and you said that,

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you've experienced redundancy.

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But why does redundancy matter to you?

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Phil Sterne | Escape Corporate W@nkery:

Like I say I've been made redundant, and

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I've been, like you, on the other side

of the table as well, whether that was

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actually having redundancy conversations

with team members as a member of

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the HR team or structuring selection

processes and frameworks and whatnot

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for for restructuring the situation.

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I- I've been involved in it on both sides.

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Actually, and a third because, of

course I've now have clients who I work

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with who have been made redundant or

who have taken settlement agreements.

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And I think the common themes that

I've seen are generally when people

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have been made redundant, particularly

after a lot of time in a company,

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so say perhaps they've been with

the company for a decade or two, is

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that they come out into the outside

world, and they don't know what to do.

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There's a real kind of, "Ah what…

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I haven't got a clue what I'm doing."

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The world's moved on, and they haven't

needed to look for a job for five,

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10, 15, 20, however many years.

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It's not just about the kind

of tactical stuff around their,

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getting a CV and having a product

that they can go out there with.

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It's, "Oh, yeah what the hell

do I do with my life now?

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Where am I at?"

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And I don't know.

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And there's lots of I don't know.

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I think what really matters about

handling a redundancy process from a

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from an HR perspective is, as I'm sure

you would say, just handle it with care.

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For people, their job is so

much more than their job.

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More, more often than not,

it's part of who they are.

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It's part of…

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It becomes their identity,

whether they realize it or not.

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So just cutting somebody loose

after so many years is gonna have

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an impact on, on, on who they are

as a person, what their purpose is.

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So yeah, just handle it with care.

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June Hogan: And when you were talking

there and I was thinking, and you have

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articulated it there, that if somebody

is just focusing on I need to work on

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my CV," whether that's coming to you as

a, as an experienced CV writer, whether

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that's going to their HR manager because,

they're still working through the process,

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whether it's coming to an outplacement

provider, whoever it is, it's that notion

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that I just need to get my CV updated."

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But there's so much else that is

entangled in all of that because

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redundancy is a life-changing event

and has an impact far wider than I'll

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just need to go and find another job."

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So what are some of the things that you

notice that can get in the way when you're

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working with somebody who is coming to

you with that notion of, "I need to update

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my CV," and start to talk about some of

the things around their achievements,

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their skills, and their value,

particularly in a redundancy situation?

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Phil Sterne | Escape Corporate W@nkery:

Often they haven't really had

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to think about it forever.

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They just turn up at their job, do

their job and come home or, they

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separate the work from their home.

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And because they've been doing it for

so long, they've got this unconscious

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competence, so they forget what they know,

if they don't necessarily always recognize

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the value that they've brought to the

organization or organizations that they've

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worked with along the line because because

whatever it is that they've done, it's

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just how they might say it's just obvious.

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I just do it."

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So until you start unpicking some of

the things that they've actually done

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and asking why they did it that way or

how did they get to be doing that or why

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were they asked to do that or what is it

they're known for, it's only really then

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that you start to understand or that they

start to understand, "Oh, actually, the…

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I had some value over and

above my job description."

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And quite often, you'll have seen it

I'm sure when we've got CVs in front of

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us, that quite often even at a senior

level they can read as job descriptions

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because pe- people are so engrossed in

their work, they don't necessarily…

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They don't think about their

CV, so they don't need to do it.

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So when they come to do it…

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it's often a case of what

was in my job description?

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What were the things that

I was responsible for?"

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So we end up with a list of

responsibilities rather than

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things they actually did.

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So I suppose the thing, the main

thing that gets in the way is this

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kind of massive blind spot of not,

just not realizing the value that

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they actually brought or not being

able to quantify or qualify it

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June Hogan: And when confidence has

been knocked through a redundancy

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process, makes it even harder.

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And I've had to update my own CV.

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You probably had to do the same.

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And when you're in a redundancy situation,

it's probably the last thing that you

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feel like doing, but it's the first

thing that you know you have to do

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Phil Sterne | Escape Corporate W@nkery:

For sure.

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Because when your confidence is

knocked like that, it can, you can

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start to call into question the

actual value that you've given.

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Even if you've had years of good feedback

or whatever it is a real likelihood that

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you could be sitting there going I'm…

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That they've got rid of me for a purpose

or for a reason I, where is my value?

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Don't know."

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Which kind of might have the effect of

almost throwing a blanket over their

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experience, so it's even more difficult.

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It becomes even more opaque.

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June Hogan: And you mentioned there

about some people may not even have a CV.

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Quite regularly I work with senior

clients who've never had to look for

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a job si- since they left school.

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And people assume, "Oh, you're senior,

you've been working for 20 years.

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You must have a, an up-to-date CV."

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So for those people and I was in this

situation when I was made redundant

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both times, I didn't have a CV.

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Second time I had the old

one from eight years ago.

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but for somebody who either hasn't

updated their CV for a while or

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they've never had have a CV, and

particularly people listening might

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be supporting people through a

redundancy process, HR professionals

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listening to this or line managers.

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If someone's coming to them going,

"I don't even know where to start,

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i've been working for 15 years.

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What do I do?"

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Have you got any sort of tips

or ideas of how you can even

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start that process for somebody?

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Phil Sterne | Escape Corporate W@nkery:

If somebody has no CV or something

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that they wrote in, I don't know,

20 years ago or 15 years ago i- if

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they've got something, it's a good…

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It's better than having nothing.

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But I also recognize that some people's

CV, has, is steeped maybe in the

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still written in Times New Roman.

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But even having that as a starting

place is better than nothing.

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But honestly, if you do have nothing,

and it, it may be quite common because I

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know that if people have moved on within

an organization or even outside of their

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organization, in the old way was that

people would get tapped on the shoulder.

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More often than not, people get tapped

up for jobs, and the CV was almost a

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a record of their career history that

supported a, an interview conversation.

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Whereas all that time while they've been

busy at work, the purpose of the CV has

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become absolutely about being a marketing

document, and people aren't getting

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tapped on the shoulder anymore as much.

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And certainly that's what my

clients are telling me, and

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that's one of the challenges.

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They're coming to me and then say…

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or to you, and saying I don't know

where to start because I'm used

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to being tapped on the shoulder."

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But essentially if you think of it as a

marketing document, if you think about

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it from the per- perspective of what

are the problems that my new employer

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needs to solve, so you think about it

from that perspective as opposed to what

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skills do I bring, then you're gonna be

on the right lines because now, because

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it's a marketing document, it has to

be about solving a problem rather than

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being an anthology of your history.

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I even say, in the c- the actual

career bit, your experience,

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people often put career history,

and it's the smallest thing, but

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I always say, "Just change that.

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Let's just change that to experience."

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That is what you're bringing.

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Your career history, th- this

isn't a history document.

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Th- this isn't an archeological

dig through your career.

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It's how have I solved problems that

are similar to the kind of problems

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that you ex-employer may have.

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So that's one thing.

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The other thing that brings to mind is

about getting across really quickly in

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the first sort of third of a page, because

that's what we see on the screen, 'cause

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of course, who has paper CVs these days?

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Is getting across in that first third to

a half of a page opportunities for the

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recruiter to start mentally ticking off

the things that they need to see in order

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to consider you as a relevant candidate.

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Because they're not gonna be

reading through your CV in detail

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until they've done that hallowed

six-second whiz through where they're

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literally just looking for signals.

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It's I know ChatGPT talks about

signal, more signal, less noise,

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but it is that and, that's…

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You can do that in so many ways in

that first third to a half of a page,

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but it's something that's necessary.

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June Hogan: I love the way you

describe that there f- for the

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CV as a marketing document.

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It's not, as you said there, an

archeological dig through your

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experience and your history.

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And lots of people will be very,

quite rightly, proud of their

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work history, their experience

and want to display it all.

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And I think one of the things that…

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and I see this a lot and it frustrates

me, and I'm sure it does you as well,

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is that age discrimination is a thing,

unfortunately, within recruitment.

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And so for people who have a long

career history, there's generally some

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tips, and I'll let you articulate them,

but we don't need to have every job

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that you did since you left school.

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We don't need to have kind of lots

of that detail because, and I know

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you've described the CV like a funnel.

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The more relevant information is

gonna be the stuff that's more recent.

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So

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Phil Sterne | Escape Corporate W@nkery:

Yes

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June Hogan: through a

little bit about that.

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Say, age discrimination is, is- shouldn't

be a thing that we have to talk about,

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but unfortunately it's a reality.

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How can people make sure that

coming across in the best way on

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their CV particularly as you say,

you've got that first third that

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the recruiters are looking at,

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Phil Sterne | Escape Corporate W@nkery:

I suppose there, there's an important

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distinction here is of course

to not be disingenuous, right?

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That if you have got 30 years experience,

great, that somebody's gonna be you're

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gonna be a great hire for somebody But

you're right, age discrimination does

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exist howev-however we like it or not.

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So one of the things you can do, I put…

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You mentioned the funnel there,

is to front load the experience

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on the front page with the last

sort of five years o-of work.

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And as you go further back, you reduce

and reduce the the amount of detail that

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you put into any particular job listing.

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And depending on how far, h-how

relevant things are, you might only

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wanna go back fifteen years maybe

twenty max to within any detail.

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And then after that, you can literally

just kind of line item the job

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entries, and you may roll them up.

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Say you had three jobs in one

particular place, you could roll

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them up and you could put them

into a particular time bracket.

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But it's literally just on one

line, so company, job title, date.

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You could, if you wanted to remove all of

those dates, you could just have a little

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section that says earlier career, and it

might be a really-- just a really short

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paragraph, perhaps three lines that said,

"I spent the first part of my career," not

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being specific about, a decade and a half.

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"But the first part of my career

working my up-- way up through this and

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this gaining that kind of experience

in these kinds of organizations,

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which led to my role at blah," which

is whatever the next one up is.

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So that's one thing you could do.

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Another thing you can do is you can

just take the dates off your education.

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That's another good thing you can do.

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You can…

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There, there are other subtle giveaways

that somebody is a bit older in their CV.

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And it could again be the font, it could

be that it's written in Times New Roman.

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It could be that they've got an AOL or

a Hotmail account address or a Yahoo.

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My dad's got a Yahoo address,

and he's seventy-five.

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My first email address was an AOL

address, you and I, we're of an age

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where we were there when the first

email addresses were coming out.

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And I switched to BT Internet, and

now of course I'm with Gmail and

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who knows that I'm fifty years old?

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It's Gmail, isn't it?

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Whereas if I had an AOL address, it

a it ages you, but also it suggests

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that you're not really moving

with the times and you might be a

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little bit old-fashioned and da.

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Yeah, update some of that stuff.

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And this isn't about being down with

the kids and all of that, but it's just

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about presenting yourself in a way that

could remove subtle signs of of age.

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June Hogan: Yeah, no, there's

some really useful tips there.

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And you talk there about CVs not

reading like a job description.

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So I'm thinking about somebody who's at

risk of redundancy, and maybe they're,

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they're just looking for some support.

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They've gone to talk to their line

manager about helping them with their CV.

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I'm wondering, a job description

to me sounds like a good place to

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start because it reminds you of the

things that you are, responsible for.

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We all know that day-to-day

job descriptions don't always

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necessarily read across.

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From your perspective, turning a job

description into a C- a CV and kind of

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an achievement-focused statement what's

the best way that someone, say, who's

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listening to this thinking I'd love to

give my team members some help with this.

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How could I help them see

their job description reflected

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in more of a CV action

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Phil Sterne | Escape Corporate W@nkery:

Yeah.

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Okay.

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Dead simple.

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Dead simple.

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So if you think about your the…

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let's just pack this in

a different way quickly.

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So in a CV, you're gonna have

two types of bullet point.

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You're gonna have a bullet point

that's in the present tense maybe,

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and you're gonna have a bullet

point that's in the past tense.

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So if part of your job, for example,

is faci-facilitating workshops

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to help people devise processes.

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That's a bit of a clumsy sentence,

but off the top of my head.

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That's a, it's really passive, isn't it?

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It sounds like it's come straight from

a job description, facilitating da.

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So what?

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Okay.

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If you just take that exact

same sentence and put,

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faci- and turn it into the past tense.

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So facilitated.

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Facilitated workshops to help teams devise

new processes, then immediately you've

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got something that you can work with.

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You're literally just taking the

present ta- present tense sentence and

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putting it in the past tense, leading

with that verb in the past tense, and

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then add to it some kind of outcome.

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So facilitated workshops to help teams

develop new processes in order that,

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they were able to save £1 million.

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So if you've got some kind of

quantifiable output, you're not always

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gonna be able to get a quantifiable

output, in, in terms of money or time

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or whatever, but if you can, then do.

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And sometimes you might wanna

actually lead with the lead

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with that as the outcome.

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So saved £1 million by facilitating

workshops to help teams devise new

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processes that cut out X amount

of steps, or improved the customer

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experience, or did this or did that.

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So actually using your your job

description as a springboard, if you

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like, to think about if I did this,

if I put that in the past tense, what

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was it doing and what was the outcome?

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Great.

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Let's maybe lead with the outcome

because that's the important thing.

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That's the, going back to what I was

saying about solving the problem,

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most companies' problems are how

do we sell more and how do we

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sell more at a lower cost to sell?

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So how do we reduce costs?

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If you can get those things across in a

CV, then you're showing that you've, you

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understand the business a little bit more

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June Hogan: Yeah, so there's

some really useful points in here

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about it's a marketing document.

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It's not just about historical

kind of information.

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It's making it active.

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It's adding in some outcomes

and some measureables.

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We talked about how you can shape it

around listing your experience and not

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necessarily going into, to loads of detail

if you do have a longer career history.

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So I'm wondering if we should

talk about the elephant in the

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room, which is AI and CV writing.

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Phil Sterne | Escape Corporate W@nkery:

Yeah.

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Okay

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June Hogan: Talk us through

because, I've seen CVs from clients

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that have been written by AI,

and there's no judgment there.

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Because if you are being told you're

losing your job, and the first thing

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you're gonna do is try and do whatever

you can to find another job, and that

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might be an immediate, "I'm gonna

go and get ChatGPT to update my CV."

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And that's, there's no judgment based in

that situation at all because you're gonna

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be in, in panic situation, aren't you?

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Phil Sterne | Escape Corporate W@nkery:

Yes

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June Hogan: But just talk us through

what you've seen, what you've

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noticed, and even where AI can be

helpful, 'cause I'm not suggesting

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it isn't helpful in this situation.

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But just talk us

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Phil Sterne | Escape Corporate W@nkery:

Yeah.

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June Hogan: a bit about that

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Phil Sterne | Escape Corporate W@nkery:

Okay, cool.

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So you're absolutely

right, it can be helpful.

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And of course, if we were having

this conversation a year, 18 months

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ago this wouldn't even be a thing.

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It's quite crazy how it's come

into all parts of business

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like a tsunami wave really.

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But yeah, I was talking to a client

the other day who had sent me two

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versions of their CV and without

him telling me, I knew which one

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was written by AI Because he'd…

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It- because I know what a ChatGPT

document looks like because I've

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had them, and I'm not the only one.

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Typically it'll have quite wide margins,

it'll have the same font, it'll have

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the line that separates bits of text.

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It'll have big, bold headings

and y- and th- there's usually…

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it can be quite skeletal as well.

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I tend to see that.

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And what happens is somebody takes their

existing CV adds a few notes about maybe

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what their job was in their latest job

adds it to a ChatGPT chat along with a job

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ad and says, "Write my CV for this job."

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But it's inevitably just

missing loads of context.

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And I would say with this

chap that I was talking to the

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other day, he was ex-Amazon.

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He was over in the States in New

York State, and these two versions

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that I was looking at, one like

I say, was clearly ChatGPT, but

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the other one was actually better.

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It wasn't great, but it was better.

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It was more rich, and it

had more for us to go on.

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So when it came to us rewriting it

or talking about what the new content

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would look like, I didn't even

bother with the ChatGPT one because

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there was just not enough there.

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And it really lacked personality.

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So I think if there is a trap, it's

panic stations, drop existing CV and

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job advert into ChatGPT, write me a

CV that resolves this, that would get

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me an interview for the- for this job.

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So the downside is recruiters all know

that be able to spot it from a mile off,

425

and it won't sound or feel like you.

426

There is a place for it though.

427

Now up until this year or late

last year every client that I've

428

worked with, I then hand wrote…

429

not hand wrote, but I did it

all myself using my own brain

430

write- rewriting their CV.

431

But actually the value

comes from the conversation.

432

The value comes from the conversation

and asking the right questions

433

that uncover the uncovers the

context and the answers that, that

434

I need to be able to rewrite a CV.

435

So sometimes if I've got a lot of

that, pages and pages of notes, for

436

example, or I might take a, I might use

Fireflies to record the meeting and-

437

There may be some anecdote that I've

missed in my notes or some almost side

438

note that they've mentioned that I've

not picked up that can be a real kind

439

of bit of gold to include in the CV.

440

So often what I'll do is I'll take my

notes and I'll take a transcript of

441

the call if they've permitted me to do

it, and and I'll ask whichever chat…

442

whichever AI to identify insights that

I haven't or to summarize insights

443

in a different way, just because

it saves time, and it means that I

444

can get to my version more quickly.

445

If you are advising people on how to use

AI as part of the the CV writing, it might

446

be to get AI to ask you some questions

to help you write an effective CV.

447

Now I don't know how good it will be

at that because I know that when I'm

448

asking those questions, A it's born

out of twenty years of experience

449

of handling CVs and working in

recruitment and doing what I do.

450

B, it's out of the insight

of knowing which question to

451

ask to get to the end result.

452

A-and also from having built some

actual rapport with the person.

453

So I'm not saying don't use AI, but I

would say use it in support of a human

454

conversation rather than instead of

455

June Hogan: And that notion of using it

maybe more as a coach than necessarily

456

as an author and having tho- those

prompts which are looking for gaps and

457

insights and what's missing and what

else, and as opposed to just do this for

458

me because, I don't know where to start.

459

And there might be, if somebody's working

through their CV, they might have some

460

parts that they're struggling with, so

using it for maybe just helping with

461

some wordsmithing or something like that.

462

But that

463

notion of just handing the whole

thing over, as you said there,

464

to just y- ask AI to do it for

you it, that's never gonna be,

465

Phil Sterne | Escape Corporate W@nkery:

No I don't think so.

466

Not at the moment anyway.

467

I just don't think it's intelligent

enough to y- you know…

468

I think, and I've thought about this,

I'm sure there are others doing it,

469

about creating an AI agent to actually

do some of this intelligent conversation.

470

But yeah, great example of, if you've

written a big, long what people might

471

call a personal statement or summary

section or whatever it is at the top,

472

and those things can be like bricks.

473

I've seen them, it's 15 lines

of solid text and loads of CV

474

tropes like, track record in this

and highly organized and all,

475

June Hogan: that's one

of your bugbears, isn't

476

Phil Sterne | Escape Corporate W@nkery:

ah all of…

477

passionate, yeah, all of that stuff.

478

And being able to say to it, "Okay,

I'm gonna be applying for these kinds

479

of jobs take the content of my CV and

my existing summary and reduce it into

480

three short, three short sections.

481

One which basically says what I do and for

who, one which says what I'm known for,

482

and one that says what I enjoy or why I

do what I do, but each of those sentences

483

pointing to an outcome for an employer,"

then you've got something better.

484

You will have something better,

and then you might just need

485

to ask it to consolidate it

by, a third to to reduce the

486

Word count.

487

And and then you've got…

488

So you will have something

that is probably better than

489

having 15 lines of solid text.

490

But I would still get

a human to look at it.

491

June Hogan: Yeah, absolutely.

492

And it might be, you said there

about having the conversation.

493

Again if you're not able to access

professional support or you're supporting

494

somebody during a redundancy consultation

process, then maybe they just, do some

495

voice notes or something like that,

or just, put information in, into a

496

conversation answering some of those

questions, as you said there, that you

497

can get ChatGPT to ask you about, what

information would I need to create a g- a

498

great CV, and then you start answering it.

499

But I think the summary is if you can

get access to professional support,

500

clearly that's gonna be better.

501

But as a minimum, you're

gonna need someone else to

502

maybe read through it or look

503

over it.

504

Don't just rely on it completely.

505

Phil Sterne | Escape Corporate W@nkery:

No, and I think the sort of

506

side thing here that we haven't

really talked about the…

507

is you're going through or that, that

person or those people are going through

508

human emotions, and being able to

support them in a human way, supported

509

by AI, is always gonna be a better

experience than a purely AI solution.

510

You're helping somebody through a

difficult human experience, and I'd

511

worry if that was being entirely, at

the moment at least, being entirely

512

outsourced to technology to, to resolve.

513

As much as in the same way as hiring

using AI chatbots and videos and stuff, I

514

think is not the ideal way for everybody.

515

In the future it might

be different, but for now

516

June Hogan: Yeah.

517

No, you make a good point there because

the process that you'll go through

518

with clients, and that we see as

well, is even just having that human

519

connection and that human conversation.

520

Yes, the outcome is a CV, but there's

so much more that goes on when you're

521

having those kind of discussions that

522

Phil Sterne | Escape Corporate W@nkery:

Yeah, there's nuances, aren't there, that

523

we pick up on, particularly if we're doing

a video com- a video call, coaching call.

524

It's so often what's not

said that holds the gold.

525

You can detect a a silence or a facial

expression in a conversation that

526

you can hold and just what was that?

527

What was that?

528

What was just going through

your mind just there?

529

AI won't do that for you

530

June Hogan: Yeah.

531

No, absolutely.

532

if someone's listening to this and they've

got someone in their team or, they've got

533

some team members who are gonna be going

through a redundancy process and they

534

want to do what they can to support them

during that process with regard to CVs.

535

I know we've talked a lot there, and

there's loads more that we c- that we

536

could have covered in terms of, how to

create a great CV to secure interviews.

537

But what would be some of your top tips

if someone's come into your office or

538

they're, you've got an online conversation

and they're like, "I'm really struggling.

539

I haven't updated my CV.

540

I haven't…

541

I don't even know where to start.

542

Can you help me?"

543

What advice would you give

544

Phil Sterne | Escape Corporate W@nkery:

Okay.

545

June Hogan: to this?

546

Phil Sterne | Escape Corporate W@nkery:

I think the-- a mistake that people might

547

make, particularly if they're leaving

a business after or a role after some

548

years, and I often talk about, a decade

or two even, is that they may knee-jerk

549

into, "I've got to get another job."

550

And that's even if they're walking

away with six months or a year's

551

money, which often happens, right?

552

We've both seen it with

clients that we've had.

553

But because work is them and they've

been used to getting up and going to

554

work and earning some salary, suddenly

there may be this sort of scarcity

555

around i-in their minds about, "I've

gotta, I've gotta get another job.

556

I've gotta get a salary coming in.

557

I've gotta start making this happen

because, h-how do we pay the school fees?

558

How do I pay for this?

559

How do I pay for that?"

560

Even though, like I say, they probably,

might have six months or a year's money.

561

And I think one of the mistakes

people make is doing that and diving

562

straight into, "I've just got to

rewrite the CV and get it out there

563

and, get it to some recruiters."

564

When often they've got an opportunity

just to pause and what I see quite often

565

is people saying I wanna consider doing

this kind of role and maybe that kind

566

of role and maybe some consultancy.

567

Can you do me a CV for that?"

568

It's slow down.

569

I can't do…

570

Remember, this is a marketing document.

571

We're solving a problem,

not solving three or five.

572

And so if you're gonna, if you're gonna-

if you're in that situation, I'd really

573

encourage you to take stock and think

about, actually, what is it that I enjoy?

574

What is it I wanna fill my days with?

575

If I reflect over the last 10, 15, 20

years, what have I enjoyed the most?

576

What have I contributed the most?

577

Where has my value been?

578

And what do I wanna do more of?

579

And by doing that, you're

creating an identity that is you,

580

not you at that last employer.

581

It's y- it's understanding more

about you, and that will help you

582

identify, okay, what direction

do you want to actually go in?

583

So there's like a reset moment.

584

Let's get some clarity, and

then we're into direction.

585

Okay what one or two types of

roles is it I really wanna go into?

586

And once you've nailed that direction,

then you can start thinking about your CV,

587

and then you can create a really neatly

tailored CV to that specific direction.

588

But if you've got half a dozen different

things that you fancy doing, and you

589

try to answer all of that in one CV,

and it does become, like one massive

590

document with everything you've ever

done on it, then the chances are

591

you're not gonna get picked up because

you, it's not really clear the one

592

thing that you do or the one or two

things that you do and do really well.

593

So my advice would be just to slow down

594

June Hogan: Yeah.

595

And that would lead into other things such

as then what's your job search strategy?

596

You got to know what you're looking for.

597

You got to be targeted with

all of that, and that's a

598

Phil Sterne | Escape Corporate W@nkery:

Yes.

599

Yeah.

600

June Hogan: subject

601

Phil Sterne | Escape Corporate W@nkery:

act- and actually u-using

602

that, if you can find…

603

often not often, every time I ask my

clients to bring me a couple of target

604

job adverts, and this does two things.

605

One, it gives me something to

work backwards from or to ask

606

questions from to help get the right

kind of information for the CV.

607

But also it gets the client to really

think about what it is that they want.

608

And if I get five different job

descriptions for five different

609

things, I'll be saying, "Okay

which one of these is it?"

610

'Cause we can't do one CV for five.

611

We can't have one CV that's a

COO, CEO, chief revenue officer,

612

and a transformation director.

613

Yeah, those are all four different jobs.

614

So then they're four different

problems that we're solving.

615

So sure, we can write four s-

different CVs, but which one is it?

616

June Hogan: Absolutely.

617

And I love how we've looped back to

that point of C- a CV is a document

618

that demonstrates the problems

that you can solve for a future

619

employer, and remembering that

620

Phil Sterne | Escape Corporate W@nkery:

Oh, exactly.

621

I think the mis- biggest mistake people

make is they write the CV for the job

622

they've got, not the job they want.

623

You absolutely need to write

the CV for the job you want

624

June Hogan: Yeah.

625

And that applies to somebody in an

entry-level role up to the C-suite.

626

These principles we've been talking

about today, I know you work with senior

627

clients, but it doesn't matter what

level you're at, th- they're all the same

628

Phil Sterne | Escape Corporate W@nkery:

Absolutely.

629

Yeah.

630

And it doesn't matter if you're going

for a sideways move or a diagonal

631

move or a straight, promotional move

or actually going to do something…

632

this might be a diagonal move.

633

You're going to do something

slightly differently but or a

634

different type of job but it's a

promotion or sideways or whatever.

635

Y- By presenting your e- your

current experience in the,

636

through the frame or the lens of

that job is gonna be a mistake.

637

You need to be able to pick out

the elements or get the positioning

638

in your mind that in its…

639

That isn't necessarily gonna be quite as

relevant to the job that you're going for.

640

So you need to be able to pick out

of it which bits of it and which

641

bits of framing are gonna be relevant

to that promotion or to that job.

642

It's being able to change the

perspective on, on the role.

643

Literally if I'm holding my hands up

in a kind of a ball shape here, but

644

you can look at it straight on and

go that's the job that I've had."

645

But if you look at it from the side

and go I did this and this," which

646

are more relevant to that job,

that's how you need to be presenting

647

yourself for that job because

otherwise there'll be a disconnect.

648

June Hogan: Yeah, absolutely.

649

Wow.

650

Phil there's lots more that we could

dig into with all of this, but I'm

651

really pleased that we've covered

some of the fundamentals there.

652

And hopefully people listening who are

either going through this themselves or

653

supporting others who are going through

a redundancy process have got some

654

real insights there into some practical

things that they can do to help people.

655

So thank you so much for sharing

your insights and knowledge.

656

So if people want to find out more about

what you do where can they find you?

657

Phil Sterne | Escape Corporate W@nkery:

They can find me on my website,

658

which is philsterne.com.

659

They can find me on LinkedIn Phil Sterne.

660

Sterne with an E though, S-T-E-R-N-E.

661

I'm sure that'll be in the show notes.

662

And they're in those two places mainly.

663

But I'm very open to, people just

getting in touch and we have a

664

conversation and see if there's

a fit, see how I can help you.

665

June Hogan: Wonderful.

666

Thank you, Phil.

667

Yes, I'll put all of that in

the show notes and yeah, I can

668

highly recommend Phil from the

work that we've done together.

669

He does some amazing work for

my clients and his as well.

670

I've really enjoyed our conversation.

671

Thank you so much, Phil

672

Phil Sterne | Escape Corporate W@nkery:

My absolute pleasure.

673

It's been great.

674

Thank you for having me

675

Thank you so much for listening

to the Redundancy Matters podcast.

676

I hope you found today's episode helpful.

677

It would mean a lot to me if you

would follow rate and review this

678

podcast wherever you listen to your

podcasts, as this helps it reach more

679

people who are managing redundancies.

680

Let me know what you thought,

and if you have ideas for future

681

episodes, I'd love to hear from you.

682

You can find me on LinkedIn, June

Hogan, and get in touch via my

683

website, wildwood coaching.co.uk,

684

where you'll also find more resources

to help you manage redundancies.

685

I hope you'll join me again soon for

the next episode of Redundancy Matters.