Season 3 – Episode 4 Redundancy and Financial Wellbeing: Supporting People Through the Shock

Welcome to today's episode of Redundancy Matters, and today I'm

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delighted to be joined by Abby Birch.

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Abby is a financial wellbeing and money

expert with 25 years of experience

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as a qualified financial advisor.

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She's also a coach and a trainer, and

she helps organizations reduce financial.

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Improve wellbeing and

build financial confidence.

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And I'm really excited to be joined by

Abby today because this is a topic that

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we haven't covered before on the podcast.

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And we're gonna be talking

all about financial wellbeing

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in the context of redundancy.

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So welcome, Abby.

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Abby Birch: Thank you very much June.

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I'm what a pleasure to be here.

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June Hogan: We are looking forward

to having a discussion all about

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financial wellbeing and how that can

support people and support people who

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are managing redundancies as well as

those people who are affected by it.

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Abby, that was a really

quick introduction from me.

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Would you like to introduce yourself

and tell the listeners a bit more

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about you and your background?

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Abby Birch: Yeah, thanks June.

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I was a financial advisor for many.

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Years and I worked with individuals

who are high net worth and who

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had money that they wanted to

invest to build more wealth.

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But I realized that in doing that

I wasn't really making that much of

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a difference to individuals' lives

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and that there's a huge, what we

call the advice gap in the uk,

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and there's this huge s swat of people

who are need some help and support

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with their money, but, can't access

traditional financial advice as it were.

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And I realized that I'd really like

to support those people, which is

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where the coaching came in really,

because it's much more accessible

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way for people to be able to access.

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Help and support around their finances.

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And then from that looking at coaching

individuals people have started to

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look towards their employers more and

more for support and help and guidance

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around their financial situation.

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So I move more into the corporate

financial education in the

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workplace to help support that.

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And I think one of the key

areas you mentioned, today's

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about redundancy, is that.

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That is quite a huge financial

shock for people when they're told

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that they've been made redundant.

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And it's a really good opportunity for

organizations to actually support people

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and to show that they care more about,

it's not just about them working for

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them, but they can actually help and

support 'em through that transition.

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June Hogan: Oh, that's really interesting,

your journey from, as you say, working

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with people who had money to invest

through to educating people who

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wouldn't necessarily have had access.

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And I think that financial wellbeing

and that education piece is something

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that we can all benefit from.

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And absolutely as you said there, well as

an emotional rollercoaster of redundancy.

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There's also the financial implications,

which are very real for many people.

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So looking forward to exploring the

ideas and the thoughts and some of

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the insights that HR professionals

or leaders listening to this.

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Episode can help people with without

going into the realms of financial

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advice, which is clearly some, somewhere

that people aren't qualified to do.

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Wonderful.

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The podcast is called Redundancy

Matters, and I always ask the guests

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this why does redundancy matter to you?

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Abby Birch: So I personally have been made

redundant twice in my career and I've had.

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Two very different experiences.

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The first one was I worked

for a major high street bank.

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I've been a financial advisor for

them for many years, and our roles

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were changing quite considerably.

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And with change as people don't often

always like change that comes along.

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So my whole team were really looking

forward to being made redundant

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and, put our names up almost

please, can we be made redundant?

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Because we don't want to

be doing the ongoing role.

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And so that was one experience.

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And I'd been with the company and a,

major high Street bank for an a long time.

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And so I had a reasonable

payout from that.

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So that took away a lot of the

financial stress that we are talking

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about because I knew that I had a

good buffer to be able to go away and

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work out what I wanted to do next.

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We were also put on gardening leave.

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So again, and quite a long, I

think it was about six months

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we were on gardening leave.

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So again, a lot of time to be able to

prepare mentally and financially and

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work out what our next steps were.

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So that was a really good experience.

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And on the flip side that I got made

redundant, which is what led me to work

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for myself now and do what I'm doing now.

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I got made redundant about three

years ago and that was a slightly

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different, experience in the fact

that we were a startup company.

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We had funding that was taken away

and it literally happened overnight.

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So we had a meeting on like a Thursday

and we were told, and by the Monday

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we no longer had a job, and because

hadn't been working for them for so

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long, the payout wasn't as big and

it was a bit more stressful whilst I

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tried to work out what I wanted to do.

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Now it's worked out well for

me because I've continued and.

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Built something from that

experience and become self-employed,

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which is totally different.

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So I can see both sides of the story

where, we welcomed the redundancy

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versus it was a bit of a shock.

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And what am I gonna do next?

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June Hogan: Yeah.

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That's really interesting, both ends

of that spectrum and even for those

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people and I work with a variety

of clients who may be financially

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stable and they may have been with

their employer for a reasonable

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time, and then may be, an enhanced.

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Redundancy payment, people will still

be naturally looking for some elements

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of guidance in terms of what's the

best thing to do with their money, as

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well as those people who, as you say,

have been with the company for a very

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short period of time not financially

stable, hardly anything to go off.

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And the financial pressures are very real.

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So it's really interesting that you,

yeah, you can see that from those sides.

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Abby Birch: I was lucky I'd

actually worked for the organization

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for long enough to be eligible

for statutory re redundancy.

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But there were quite a few of us within

the startup environment that weren't,

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and that they were not gonna get anything

at all other than their notice period.

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June Hogan: That is a situation which,

you know as a HR professional you really

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feel for people in that situation.

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And I know when as we go along,

we'll talk about some of the things

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that we, you can offer as support.

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so we talked a bit about the fact that

you specialize in financial wellbeing,

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but what does that actually mean?

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Tell us a bit more about

financial wellbeing.

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Abby Birch: So financial wellbeing there's

a quite a good, description of financial

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wellbeing, which is financial wellbeing

is about feeling secure and in control.

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It's about making the most of your

money from day to day and dealing

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with the unexpected and being on

track for a healthy financial future.

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So financially resilient,

confident and empowered.

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But to translate that into everyday

speak when we're talking about security.

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And today is about being able to

afford the day-to-day things like

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your mortgage, your rent, your food,

how you know how you get to work.

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And in, when we are looking into the

future with the security, it's about.

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Dealing with the unexpected.

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Things like having an emergency

fund so that if you suddenly get

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made redundant, you've got some

money that's there as a buffer.

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Or if something happens that you're

not expecting, the boiler breaking

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down that's very apt this week

in the freezing cold, isn't it?

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That you've got some money to be able to

fall back onto to, to help you through

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those unexpected financial shocks.

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But then we also talk about choices.

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So choices.

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Today are things like being able to afford

to go out for dinner or go on holiday.

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Having that extra money on top

of your day-to-day costs that you

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have to that are non-negotiable

is how I would describe them.

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On top of that, that you can be able to

afford to, pay Netflix, go for dinner,

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go for holiday, those kind of things.

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But again, when you're

looking to the future.

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Those choices are your

own financial goals.

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So when you're gonna retire, have you got

enough money put aside into your pension?

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Or if you're trying to buy a house

at the opposite end of that kind of

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scale, have you got money put aside

to be able to pay your deposit?

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So if you've got all of those four things

together, you normally pretty, financial

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wellbeing is pretty secure and you

should feel quite good about your money.

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And why that's important is that financial

wellbeing is considered to be one of

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the four pillars of overall wellbeing.

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So you've got physical, mental, social,

and the last one is your financial.

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Now, some people would describe

that as like almost the foundation

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to the other three pillars.

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That because, without financial

wellbeing, without money, you

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can't do any of the other things.

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So you can't.

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You can't, go to the gym and you

can't look after your health.

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'cause you might not be able to

afford the right food, for instance.

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Social is another one.

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You might not be able to afford to

go out with friends or, spend time

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with your family or drive and do the

things that you want to be able to do.

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And, the mental health one money and.

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Mental health are intrinsically

linked, so your money situation can

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really affect your mental health.

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So that really comes into redundancy.

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A sudden financial shock can

really affect your mental health.

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If you're suffering with poor

mental health, that can really

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affect how you deal with your money

and how you approach your money.

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So for instance, you might not want to

pay your bills or you might not want

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to open envelopes, or you might put

it off, or you just can't physically

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face doing it because of your own.

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Poor mental health.

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So the two things are

really intrinsically linked.

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Certainly with the money and mental

health side of it, but as I say it's

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like one of the four pillars, but it's

also can be considered the foundation

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of overall financial wellbeing.

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June Hogan: Really interesting the way

that you've described it in context.

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It's not just something that you need

to think about almost oh yeah, I need

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to remember to manage my finances.

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It's intrinsically linked to broader

wellbeing and really interesting what

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you said there about that connection

with mental health and how that spiral.

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Can affect people because,

redundancy has the potential to

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significantly impact mental wellbeing.

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And yeah, I think this is a really

important topic to be talking about.

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And hopefully, helping.

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HR professionals think about this

in line with not just when they're

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managing redundancies, but from

a broader perspective as well in

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terms of the wellbeing for their

organizations, which I know is

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something that you work with people on.

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And so that connection that you mentioned

there about, a financial shock and the

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connection between how people feel,

their emotions and their kind of.

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habits, or maybe you should say

reluctance to pay bills or overwhelm.

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I think that's a really important

one for people to understand.

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And so when you talk about financial

advice versus financial coaching.

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Just talk about the difference, if you

like, between those two, because as I

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know from my background, if anyone ever

mentioned anything financial related

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in a redundancy process I just would

say you'll have to go and talk to the

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pensions people, or you'd have to go

and talk to the benefits providers, et

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cetera, because you never want to be.

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Stepping across that line of advising

so what's the difference between

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advice and coaching, would you say?

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Abby Birch: Yeah, so I think the

difference is it's what we would

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call advice versus guidance.

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And so when I was a financial advisor,

I would spend quite a considerable

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amount of time with my clients and we

would take down all of their financial

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information, everything they've got.

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Then I would go away and

write a recommendation.

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And the reason I say that is that

it is, the word is very important.

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I would tell people what

to do with their money.

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So it was very important that I had

a picture of their overall financial

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situation to be able to go and make

those recommendations and give advice and

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tell people what to do with their money.

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It was up to them whether

they took my advice or not,

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but, ultimately I would say.

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You've got this amount of money.

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You need to go and put it in

X, Y, Z, and this is how much

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you should put in X, Y, Z.

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This is what you should invest

in, blah, et cetera, et cetera.

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Whereas the difference with guidance

is, and it's really about language.

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It's not telling somebody what

to do, it's talking to them

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about what their options are.

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So it's very similar to coaching as in

probably if people are familiar with

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the grow model, those kind of things.

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It's going through that process with

people to look at what their goals are.

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What their situation is, realistically

what their options are, the pros

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and cons of all of those options.

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And then it's entirely up to

somebody to actually go away and

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decide if they want to act upon that

themselves or, what options fit them.

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And it's non-regulated so anybody can talk

about, and give guidance around money.

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So the difference is very much language

based, but also it's not saying, oh Monzo,

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they do a really good deal on X, Y, and Z.

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You should go and have a look at that,

or you must go and speak to this person

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and transfer your pension to that person.

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So I think if you are thinking about your

language and how you're talking to people

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and, talking to them about different

options and signposted them to credible

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resources, that does not fall into the

the advice side of things whatsoever.

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So I think if you find yourself

talking about specifics, then

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you're probably falling into advice.

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But if you're talking in

general and signposting people,

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then that's absolutely fine.

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And I did some work around what's in

hrs remit and what's not in hrs remit.

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June, things like financial education

and resources, that's not advice.

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So if you've got financial education

and resources on your websites, on

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your intranet or your pension providers

signposting people to that's not advice.

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Financial wellbeing policies

within your organization or having

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a financial wellbeing policy,

that's perfectly acceptable.

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Having access to financial counseling

or coaching or advice with a.

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Expert.

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That's absolutely fine.

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And signposting people to, to that and

awareness training, all of those kind of

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things that you are not actually giving

the advice or guidance is absolutely fine,

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but, signposting people to them is fine.

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Doing surveys and assessing needs and

things like that's all absolutely fine.

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Within.

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Hrs remit and create, one of the things,

and you, me, you mentioned it, is like

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creating that o open culture about money

and allowing people to actually ask the

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questions, to be able to support them

in the, support them in the first place

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is a, is again, perfectly acceptable.

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But what you can't do is provide

personal financial advice.

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June, you've just been made redundant.

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You've got this amount of money.

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I think you should go and put

it into a medium risk fund

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managing people's finances.

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I have come across HR people who have

wanted to help so much that they've

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attended, like citizens advice meetings

with people and gone through their

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statements and help them create a budget

that's probably crossing the line to

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a certain extent no matter how helpful

it is tracking or requesting detailed

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financial information, we know that.

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Some regulated roles.

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I'm used to it, I have to provide bank

details, credit reports, all of those

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kind of things if I want to be an advisor.

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Over and above that, tracking what

people are doing unless it's part of your

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regulatory requirements, is a big no go.

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And imposing financial choices

on employers is another one.

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So all of you have been made redundant.

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You've all got to go and open a.

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I'm gonna use a different bank,

'cause I used Monzo earlier, but

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Lloyd's, TSB Bank and or Lloyd's Bank.

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And you have to put all your redundancy in

that that, again, is crossing into advice.

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June Hogan: That's a really

helpful distinction there, Abby.

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And that piece around wanting to help

and, maybe say going along to citizens

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advice or asking someone who may

be feeling financially overwhelmed,

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bring all your bank statements in

and we can go through it together.

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I can understand where someone

might be coming from with that,

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particularly if you've got someone

who you think is vulnerable.

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However, what you said at the start

there, it's about the language.

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So a suggestion might be for you to

sit down with all of your bills, find

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a family member or a friend who can

help you if you find that overwhelming.

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. It's guiding, but you are not

getting involved in any of that.

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So you can feel like you're supporting

the individual, but you're not

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crossing any of those boundaries.

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Abby Birch: And I think that's the thing.

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Is it once you're, you are

opening yourself up, aren't you?

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If you're getting involved into

somebody saying you told me.

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And when, even if it's the, with the,

and there's lots of organizations

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which we'll talk about in a moment.

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Who can do that work for you and who

can help and sit down and talk people

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through who are, qualified and credible.

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And a lot of them are

government backed as well.

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And charities that can actually support

people in the right way and be able

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to talk them through those kind of

things if they are overwhelmed by it.

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So you don't have to do it, is what

I'm saying is, and as much as we

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want to help sometimes helping is

signposting rather than getting involved.

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June Hogan: Yeah, no, absolutely.

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and so in a redundancy consultation

process, what would you recommend from a

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financial wellbeing perspective in terms

of best practice that anyone listening

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to this you would want them to include?

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And again, it's about signposting,

but what are some of the things that

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people can do to make sure that they're

managing that really important pillar of

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financial wellbeing during redundancy.

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Abby Birch: I think make sure

that the information is available.

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Actually, I take a step

back from that to be fair.

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To make sure it is an integral part of.

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The consultation process and that

people are aware that they can

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ask questions about their money.

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They can vent that they're concerned

about their money, which gives

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you good data anyway, doesn't it?

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To be able to then work out what solutions

are gonna I use the word solutions.

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Carefully.

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But what solutions might be suitable

for people and then you can start

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building on that, can't you?

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So once you know what people are

asking and what they're worried about.

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But I think it's having that

awareness, isn't it, in the initial

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that it is a big financial shock.

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People, they may have felt like,

even people who've got things sorted

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or have an emergency fund still

may feel that financial shock.

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And one of the things

that I talk about is what?

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Influences our financial wellbeing

and where we are at in our lifestyle

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in our life cycle has a big impact

on our financial wellbeing anyway.

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If suddenly something changes, then

that can knock you off course, can't it?

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So I think first of all, have

the awareness, but also to build

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into your consultation process.

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Sign posting and easily

accessible information.

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So if you've got a.

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Benefits provider who's got some financial

education, make sure that's really

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obvious to people that they've got, that

there's lots of benefit providers who have

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financial coaching or financial education

platforms that might be able to help.

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But it is making it easy for people

to access 'cause people don't

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know what they don't know do they?

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Gene And what, again, when I've worked

in organizations, one of the things I've

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come across a lot is that a lot of the

financial, if the financial support is

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obvious to HR and the people who set it

up, but the engagement is low because

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people aren't necessarily aware of it.

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And once you make people aware of

it and you bring it into part of

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your culture, then that means that

people are able to access it easier.

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And I think if you're going through

something like a consultation process

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for redundancy and money is gonna be

really a top concern of people and their

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financial wellbeing is a concern, make it

really clear what you've got available.

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June Hogan: And as you say that kind

of step back in that culturally, before

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any of this happens best practice would

be that financial wellbeing is part of.

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That kind the conversation.

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But yeah, making people aware

of access to that support.

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And so in terms of some of the things

that we talked about, boundaries

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earlier, what you can and can't do.

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And I think that was super helpful.

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But in terms of.

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professionals who have people who are

concerned about money, undoubtedly,

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as you say even depending on what,

where you are in your lifecycle.

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There could be people who you might

assume might not be concerned about money.

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Maybe you've got a director sitting

in front of you, but you just don't

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know their personal circumstances.

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And neither should you be

delving into them either.

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But I guess what I'm thinking about

is what can HR professionals do to

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support people who are really concerned

about money without treading over and

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stepping over those important boundaries?

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Abby Birch: And we've talked a lot

about signposting and there are

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some really great organizations

out there which are also really un.

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An under well known, if

that's a way to phrase that.

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But there are some great

organizations that that can help.

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So the first one is if people are

worried about it and it's affecting

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their mental health, then organizations

have mental health first aiders.

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And so that would be like maybe a first

step, but, and making sure that your men

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your mental health first aid is a clued up

on some of the signposting around money.

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That's a good step as well.

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But you've got people like

the Samaritans that you could

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add their telephone number in.

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And again, the Samaritans have

got financial support people.

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On their helplines, but the biggest

one, which most people have never

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heard of June which is a really great

resource for everybody, is Money Helper.

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It's an arms length

government organization.

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It is paid for through the government

and they are money helper is a,

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website, but it's not just a website.

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So you can get, you can speak to people,

you can do text chat on their website

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and they've got a huge encyclopedic

knowledge base of all financial topics.

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So for instance, if you go onto Money

Helper and it is literally just http://www.money

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helper.org.uk.

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In fact, if you just Google

Money Helper, it pings up.

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'cause obviously it's a government one.

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So it's quite top of the top of Google.

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It literally has anything that

you can possibly think of.

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So if you type redundancy, and

the first thing that pops up

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is a redundancy calculator.

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So you can check whether

you're being, whether your

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redundancy is what you expect.

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The second thing is, do I need

to pay tax on my redundancy?

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And there's a huge amount of articles

just around redundancy, but then also

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they've got the benefits in there.

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So you can have a look in there and see

what benefits you might be entitled to.

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What to do with your pension.

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So it's literally any financial topic

that you can possibly imagine is covered

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in there and it's government backed,

so it's up to date, credible, and it's

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something that you can really, believe in

the information is gonna be correct for

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the people that you are signposting there.

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So that's a really great one.

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Now, if people are really concerned

and they come to you and say, look,

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I'm really worried that I'm not

gonna be able to pay my rent on the

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first month that I'm made redundant.

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Another really great organization

is step Change Debt Charity.

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And they can offer help and advice on

how to approach your providers, create

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a budget what you need to do if you

are in the position that you may not

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be able to pay some of your creditors.

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And if you think creditors is things

like council tax, rent mortgage.

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Not just debt and credit cards, they may

very well be able to help somebody who's

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about to be made redundant and may not

be able to afford all of those things.

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They can put in place IVAs, they

can advise you on bankruptcy.

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They can get you some breathing space.

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There's something called breathing

space which means that you don't have

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to pay your bills for a few months

and that may very well be suitable for

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people who are being made redundant.

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Again, I can't recommend them.

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I can't recommend them highly enough.

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They are fantastic.

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They do some really good work.

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And, may very, will be

a really great toolkit.

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And June, I'll send you all of

these links and Citizens Advice

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Bureau you can actually go into a

Citizen's Advice Bureau and get money

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guidance there and then on the spot.

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But the reason I quite often include

them is if you need food bank vouchers,

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you actually have to get a voucher

from the Citizens Advice Bureau.

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You can't just turn up a food bank

and ask for you actually have to

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go through the process and get

a voucher to be able to do that.

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And that's where you go.

431

So they're probably the main ones

that I would incorporate in any

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communications maybe that you send

out around the consultation process.

433

If you're worried about money or you

wanna find out more information about

434

redundancy and what that means to

you, here is the money helper link.

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If you're worried about debt, here is

the step change organiz step change.

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If you're worried about

your mental health, here's.

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A list of our mental health first aiders

and the Samaritans telephone number.

438

So it's just there that people don't

actually need to come and ask you.

439

June Hogan: Those sound like really

helpful websites and I love the fact

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that Money Helper is government backed

and so it's credible, that you are

441

referring people into up to date and

authentic advice that they can go and

442

get for their own personal circumstances.

443

So to that point, we've been talking

about the theme of signposting is

444

what, this is, what this is about.

445

Abby Birch: Yeah.

446

June Hogan: So that sounds super helpful.

447

My experience of redundancy was that I

went to the job center as it was called

448

then because I had no reason not to go and

find out if I was eligible for benefits.

449

So I didn't make any assumptions that

because I had been made redundant and

450

because I had a redundancy payment,

that would mean I wouldn't get benefits.

451

So certainly something that we.

452

Suggest to people that we work with is

you might want to go and inquire at the

453

DWP and see what might be available.

454

Where else can people go to see

what they might be entitled to

455

from a benefits perspective.

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Abby Birch: So you can go onto the

government website and type in all

457

your details, but there's another way.

458

Website, and it's called entitled

to and to as in TO entitled to.co

459

uk.

460

And you can pop in all your details

and it tells you which benefits you

461

may or may not be available for.

462

Even if you are working, it's worth

going and doing that because sometimes

463

people are not earning enough and they're

automatically eligible for some benefits.

464

Things like single occupancy

council tax for instance, is one

465

that quite often gets missed and

there is a huge amount of benefits.

466

I think it's something along

the lines of about 23 billion

467

that are unclaimed every year.

468

So entitled two is a really good

place to go and have a look.

469

The government website is a little bit

more tricky and I think that's why they

470

set the, it's an independent website

up, so you just go and pop in all your

471

details and then it will tell you what

sort of benefits you're eligible to,

472

June Hogan: wonderful.

473

Thank you.

474

And we'll put the link to all of

these in the show notes so that

475

people can easily access them.

476

And you mentioned this before

as well, in terms of really

477

bringing everyone together.

478

So when you're in a redundancy

consultation process, whether that be for,

479

50 people or for five people is looking

to gather support from organizations

480

that you are already working with.

481

So your pension provider.

482

EAP, that kind of thing.

483

What else could someone who's embarking

on a redundancy consultation process

484

think about in terms of access to

support that might be there, that they

485

might maybe not know about, that they

can bring in as part of this process?

486

Abby Birch: There's definitely some

organizations out there that offer,

487

things like salary, advance and low

cost loans with through organizations.

488

So if you've got any of those quite often.

489

As a aside, as an aside, they

also offer financial education

490

and can support with that.

491

Pension providers you've

mentioned quite often offer some.

492

Support, certainly around

the pensions and redundancy.

493

They might be able to offer workshops.

494

And then there's specialists like me.

495

I could offer, I offer workshops.

496

I mentioned upskilling, your Mental

Health First Aid, just to be able to

497

have those conversations about money.

498

That's something that I I offer.

499

There's other organizations out there as

well that offer that upskilling around

500

money for mental health first aiders.

501

And it's just looking through your

existing benefits pack really and

502

finding out what you've already

got and if there are any expertise

503

you can leverage from that already.

504

As I say, the pensions

ones a really good example.

505

One that's not quite so well known

is the salary advanced companies.

506

A lot of them do have financial

education and financial wellbeing.

507

Education as a.

508

At a, as an additional benefit

onto the salary advance.

509

And again, it's just, working with

people to find out what they can offer.

510

June Hogan: So I think just wrapping

things up, really, how would you summarize

511

the approach that if you were, coaching.

512

A HR professional who's about to

embark on a redundancy process

513

now and thinking about bringing

financial wellbeing into that process.

514

What would be some of your key sort of

takeaways for people to really remember

515

about what's important in this process?

516

Abby Birch: I think sometimes it's

forgotten, but it's interesting because.

517

Over a long period of time,

the employee stroke employer

518

relationship has changed, hasn't it?

519

Especially around money.

520

It used to be very transactional.

521

So you'd go to work, you'd do your

hours, you'd get paid, you'd leave.

522

You'd come in, you'd leave all

your problems at home, you'd leave

523

work and you'd leave all your work

at work and so on and so forth.

524

But over the years, and certainly

nowadays that you know that transactional

525

relationship has changed completely and

people actually look to their employers

526

for help with their overall wellbeing and.

527

Are looking for safe, flexible, inclusive

workplaces, which this is all part of

528

that making people feel safe when they're

exiting the business as much is as

529

important as when they're working for you.

530

And they're looking for this help and

support because they see their employer

531

as a credible source of information.

532

And so if you can provide

credible information for

533

people, that's only gonna build.

534

If you've got people within the

business now, like long-term trust

535

and loyalty, but when people are

exiting, it means that they feel

536

supported, even, in a hard transition.

537

June Hogan: Yeah, it's all

part of that managing that.

538

Exit in the best way possible.

539

And I talk a lot on the podcast

about treating people with respect

540

and empathy and compassion.

541

And up until the very last day, they are,

a valuable member of your organization.

542

And so how you manage

that exit really matters.

543

And so I've really enjoyed exploring.

544

How the financial wellbeing piece,

so how can people find you, Abby,

545

if they want to find out more

about your financial wellbeing and

546

what you can do for organizations?

547

Abby Birch: So I'm, you can find me on

LinkedIn which is quite straightforward.

548

And also I've got very

straightforward website addresses.

549

http://www.abbybirch.co.uk.

550

June Hogan: Wonderful.

551

I'll put those links in the

show notes for people as well.

552

And yeah.

553

Thank you so much, Abby.

554

I know this episode's

gonna be super valuable.

555

It's been really practical and

really helpful, and thank you for

556

sharing all your insights with me.

557

Abby Birch: Thank you for having me.

558

Thank you so much for listening

to the Redundancy Matters podcast.

559

I hope you found today's episode helpful.

560

It would mean a lot to me if you

would follow rate and review this

561

podcast wherever you listen to your

podcasts, as this helps it reach more

562

people who are managing redundancies.

563

Let me know what you thought,

and if you have ideas for future

564

episodes, I'd love to hear from you.

565

You can find me on LinkedIn, June

Hogan, and get in touch via my

566

website, wildwood coaching.co.uk,

567

where you'll also find more resources

to help you manage redundancies.

568

I hope you'll join me again soon for

the next episode of Redundancy Matters.